Which is the best DIY solar panel/wind turbine program? Real people only, please.?
Apr 1st, 2009 by admin
I’ve been looking at all of the options for installing solar electricity systems online, and I’ve noticed that even the so-called review sites all seem to be part of a sales pitch….haven’t found a single, independent review of any of these products. Has anyone out there actually used any of these (Earth4Energy, HomemadeEnergy, etc.), and if so, how good are they?
If you have noticed that Earth4Energy is a scam (which it is), then you may be amused by my analysis of it at http://www.nlcpr.com/Deceptions6.html
If you want to build a wind turbine yourself (like a good engineer would), then get the following book:
Homebrew Wind Power
A HANDS-ON GUIDE TO HARNESSING THE WIND
Dan Bartmann & Dan Fink
Foreword by Mick Sagrillo
ISBN: 978-0-9819201-0-8
Published by Buckville Publications LLC
You can get this from www.otherpower.com This is a startlingly complete book and it has all the background theory you need too. They explain why, for example, you cant use a car alternator or something from a generator, and then proceed to build alternators from scratch. The references are compete — if you explore them and have the time to read, you will be right up there with the pioneers.
As for DIY solar, you can get the parts (panels, inverters, batteries, charge controllers) individually from many sources and make a system. It will not be cheap. You can’t make your own silicon cells, and probably aren’t up to designing the electronics, can’t make your own batteries etc.
My recommendation is this: Get the wind book. Look through the web sites of some of the better looking solar dealers, and if they seem to be “no bull” then e-mail them and tell them what you want. e.g. an entry level system, 80W panel, battery, inverter and charge controller so that you can make enough power for say, a small laptop. The good ones will be able to tell you what works together.
If you are thinking of a whole home solution, then you have a lot of reading to do. You need to switch to natural gas or propane (no electric heat, electric stove, electric hot water) and absolutely mininize the electrical load.
It would be nice to market a good DIY manual, but with a truthful title like “Generate power at home for more than you are paying now” or “With thirty thousand dollars in equipment, you too can avoid those monthly power bills” sales would be pathetic.
Have fun.
As for “real people” comment, when I see questions like this, I wonder if I am wasting my time because many of the questions are not real either. They are simply created by scammers so that they can add their scam replies and rate it best answer. I find this particilary galling when someone says, “this is for my science fair, and I am 14 years old” and all the answers are Earth4Energy scammers. Other times, I find my comments pasted on fake energy sites with links to pharmaceuticals. It is a mad world out there.
If you have noticed that Earth4Energy is a scam (which it is), then you may be amused by my analysis of it at http://www.nlcpr.com/Deceptions6.html
If you want to build a wind turbine yourself (like a good engineer would), then get the following book:
Homebrew Wind Power
A HANDS-ON GUIDE TO HARNESSING THE WIND
Dan Bartmann & Dan Fink
Foreword by Mick Sagrillo
ISBN: 978-0-9819201-0-8
Published by Buckville Publications LLC
You can get this from http://www.otherpower.com This is a startlingly complete book and it has all the background theory you need too. They explain why, for example, you cant use a car alternator or something from a generator, and then proceed to build alternators from scratch. The references are compete — if you explore them and have the time to read, you will be right up there with the pioneers.
As for DIY solar, you can get the parts (panels, inverters, batteries, charge controllers) individually from many sources and make a system. It will not be cheap. You can't make your own silicon cells, and probably aren't up to designing the electronics, can't make your own batteries etc.
My recommendation is this: Get the wind book. Look through the web sites of some of the better looking solar dealers, and if they seem to be "no bull" then e-mail them and tell them what you want. e.g. an entry level system, 80W panel, battery, inverter and charge controller so that you can make enough power for say, a small laptop. The good ones will be able to tell you what works together.
If you are thinking of a whole home solution, then you have a lot of reading to do. You need to switch to natural gas or propane (no electric heat, electric stove, electric hot water) and absolutely mininize the electrical load.
It would be nice to market a good DIY manual, but with a truthful title like "Generate power at home for more than you are paying now" or "With thirty thousand dollars in equipment, you too can avoid those monthly power bills" sales would be pathetic.
Have fun.
As for "real people" comment, when I see questions like this, I wonder if I am wasting my time because many of the questions are not real either. They are simply created by scammers so that they can add their scam replies and rate it best answer. I find this particilary galling when someone says, "this is for my science fair, and I am 14 years old" and all the answers are Earth4Energy scammers. Other times, I find my comments pasted on fake energy sites with links to pharmaceuticals. It is a mad world out there.
References :
http://www.nlcpr.com
http://www.otherpower.com
The person above has already provided you with some excellent information and comments. I'll see if i can add to that a tad…
We live off-grid, meaning that we have no provided electricity and must create and store our own. What we have learned has been both costly, and often labor-intensive. I’ve put a link below to some articles that would be very helpful – especially the wind and solar charts links.
If you’re going to fully convert to solar or wind, one of the greatest expenses will be your battery bank: the place where your energy is stored for use when there is no sun or wind. We started with 12-volt, at the advice of a company selling solar/wind – but later changed to the much more efficient 24-volt system. Whatever you think you’ll need in the way of batteries – add 20%, really.
Before you venture into making the change, I highly recommend spending a while doing the relevant math: how much power do you need? What is the maximum draw you’ll require? How long will you be required to run on batteries? How many watts will your inverter need to provide? Where will you place your battery bank? Will your area provide adequate solar or wind power on an annual basis? Will you keep your grid power and augment it with solar? If so, can you get money from your power company for electricity you sell back to them?
Also, be sure to check local codes first – especially if you live in a place where there are neighborhood rules – you may not be able to install solar panels reasonably, or a wind turbine.
If you want to run a normal house on solar or wind, you can expect to spend a great deal of money – many, many thousands of dollars, in fact. There will also be upkeep, repair and replacement of parts.
One of the problems we encountered came when we went to install our battery bank. Batteries emit toxic gases, and wherever you store them must be vented – out of the house. Also, batteries work best at 72° – which makes winter and hot summer use problematic, unless you have made arrangements for some kind of temperature control.
It occurs to me that one of the cheapest methods for producing your own power would be to stay on the grid and augment with solar. Wind requires a tower – and I wouldn’t consider a tower less than 60’ tall, which is costly to get installed due to the concrete requirements for its base, and the machinery used to raise it. (We have solar and a wind turbine.) The problem with augmenting grid with solar is the basic cost of the change. Right now, you can get a 100 watt solar panel for about $1,000. 100 watts does not run much, as you can imagine. Also, it must be wired to a charge controller, inverter and your power mains. This is a pricey adventure, to be sure.
Be sure you note how much power your solar panels will actually produce: the new ones are better, but do not provide 100% – and what they do provide they only provide for limited hours of each day.
Where I live, many people have green power. The biggest problems we’ve all encountered include: too few solar panels; too small of a battery bank; and too small of an inverter system. I’ve done all of my own wiring and installed my panels and wind turbine – including the tower. I have spent about $30,000 over the years, but now have a very nice power system. I do dread the day I will have to replace my $12,000 battery bank!
I hope this helps a bit.
References :
http://mymilescity.com/how-to-solar-power/index.html
Hi, you can check out the site I found below, it gives a good over view of some of the programs you mentioned above. The good thing about it is that it looks like they have actually purchased the product as they do a video review of the products.
References :
http://www.howtobuildawindturbine.net
The Northern Arizona Wind and Sun forum is an excellent resource, and they have a section on wind. There are real experts there, and there is no charge for advice. There is even a section for people to post notices of scams in both solar and wind.
Wind power is about 1/3 the price of solar if your site is suitable, but few sites are. Unless you live in the country, the building department will have something to say about your putting up a 30-foot tower. For robust power in realistic quantities, it will not be as cheap as the Earth4Energy type websites suggest.
References :
http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/index.php
The generator design in the “Homebrew Wind Power” is badly flawed.
The DanB “heavy duty” 48V stator from his web site says “This stator is wound with #15 gage wire. It has 9 coils and each coil has 105 turns in it. [...] The coils are wired in 3 phase star configuration [...] In our tests we believe this stator will be about 50% efficient at 1000 Watts. Sustained output above about 1000 Watts may overheat this stator”.
There are easy ways to get generator and rectification efficiency up above 97%, so that almost all of the harvested wind power available from the prop ends up in the batteries. Burning more than half of it in the generator and rectification is simply poor engineering. I can provide detailed plans for building a cheaper and more robust MPPT generator that is about 97% efficient at design load.
The DanB coil form, requires about 6″ per turn average, so 105 turns is about 53 feet with pigtails. Each phase with 3 coils, is then about 160 feet of #15 wire, with a nominal resistance of 0.003184 Ohms/ft, or 0.50944 Ohms/phase at room temperature.
The nature of the diode rectifier switching, combined with the precise battery voltage cut-in while charging batteries, blocks the multiple interphase current paths that would normally exist in 3-Phase AC generation and AC load systems. As such, the two phases with the highest voltage sum, will be the only two conducting current the majority of the time. Near the phase switching point, there will be two phases in parallel briefly. Because of this, the majority of the cycle will have only two phases conducting in series.
The simple equations are V = I * R, and P = V * I = I^2 * R
A fairly drained battery bank, will have a cut-in charge voltage +/- about a volt from the nominal 48V, and rise to around 56V when the bank nears fully charged. 1000W at 47V, implies sustained charge currents will start around I = P/V = 1000/47 = 21 amps for drained battery banks. The stator copper losses are then P = I^2 * R = (21^2)*(2*0.50944) = 450W copper heating losses, plus another P = V * I = 1.4V*21A = 30W losses in the rectifier.
With the copper buried in the vinyl ester resin stator casting, there is no way to cool the coils. The resin is a fairly good thermal insulator, even with ATH filler added. A 500W heater, buried in a resin insulator, is going to heat up way above 80C very quickly. Above 80C where the N42 and N50 magnets, just a tiny fraction of an inch on both sides of the stator, are permanently damaged and lose their field strength. By 80C, the resistance in the copper has increased about 23% or so, and the stator is now consuming (21^2)(2*0.68)= 600W in copper heating losses. The stator at this point is well into thermal runaway, and will destroy itself at rated power. The stator heating, also risks pushing the magnets well above their thermal limits as well. This is anything but responsible engineering … when many solutions exist to keep the product at safe operating limits by design.
Many resins, heated to several hundred degrees F, will burst into flames that will be fanned in this case by high winds and rotor windage. Before this design can be declared “safe”, the thermal runaway MUST be resolved by proper engineering, so that internal and surface temperatures in the generator do not exceed 170F at any time. There is high risk of structure and wild land fires using this product in high winds, when furling fails. Since the design violates various NEC and UL guidelines and standards, there is a high chance that even if a home owner convinced a code inspector to sign it off, that the insurance would deny damage claims since it is not a listed product. The broad litigation that will fall out from a loss of life, or major fire, will include anyone and everyone even remotely involved in the production, sale or promotion of this product.
I do not think giving this product such high marks is “responsible” advocacy for the wind power industry. This product has a high risk for loss of life, and major forest or wild land fires, if this design continues to be built and installed. The back lash from such a major loss, would be heavy regulation that is likely to kill the homebrew market by setting expensive regulatory and permitting standards that would damage the market for safe listed wind power products as well.
I tried to politely raise these issues last year in DanB’s forums, and found myself lynched by the DanB disciples, with TomW leading. I was kicked off the forums with DanB’s blessings. DanB has been warned better designs exist, and willfully has refused to listen to efficient designs that do not fail like this.
I do not need a wind generator in my back yard, but I will provide plans and guidance to anyone that would like to build a better, cheaper, efficient MPPT wind generator. A design that is much safer by sound engineering design principles, totally lacking in the DanB design. It’s interesting that designs that are 97% or better efficiency, also may need less copper and/or magnet material. So, selling poor 50% efficient designs, has the side effect of increasing magnet sales, which is where the profits are.
I will be releasing a broader analysis of the problems in the DanB generator design in a few weeks, that may catch some DanB advocates and partners in the cross fire because of their glowing reviews. We need “responsible” advocacy in this market, that includes looking well past what is accepted practice. Everybody has been doing it this way for a long time … and it’s just flat wrong.
John Bass
Senior Engineer
we’d like to contact you to discuss your blog
I am a electronics tech and have been working on a 12″, 4 coil 12v pmm. At the pressent It is running just over 600 rpm and after this weekend I will add another two amplifier stages to increase rpm to close to 1000, I hope. I have a two battery system one charges while one runs the motor. I use a timer circuit to flip flop the batteries back and forth to keep it running. I am planning to add an homemade a/c generator to the ouput shaft. I believe you are speaking the trueth about over heating and fire damage. Not to mention power loss. I would be very intrested in hearing from you. This is for my own use, not to market. My father said if I can figure this thing out he would like me to build him one also. The last thing I want is to make one of theese wind jobs and have it burn to the ground. Thank you for your time. Take care Timothy.
Great detailed information, I ll be visiting you more frequently, here is very interesting information.
Tinting
If you want to run a normal house on solar or wind, you can expect to spend a great deal of money – many, many thousands of dollars, in fact. There will also be upkeep, repair and replacement of parts.
Tint
What means would you like to use to talk with? E-mail, gtalk or something else?